Sciencetologist, moonies etc have been documented as threating and causing
harm to ex members. Were they free to leave Jonestown, Manson, Dividian etc.
Read factual books, not opinion's. Spare me the bullshit.
and say they had disclaimers but they are not valid in Ken's World.. In your
world these people should be suppressed. THAT IS CULT TACTICS.
fucking guy who would go. You are also free to have your (albeit long
winded) opinion. How come no AAer has firebombed your ass?
people". This Nun was some mean ass Cult leader. Whatever.
I though we already cleared up the stat thing. Ok, redundancy is required
with you. 2 million a year "COERCED". Once again that means 73 years times 2
(you can trust me on that one) leaves 145,000,999 have been COERCED to AA.
While Wilson certainly had enough public disclaimers for alcoholism being
a disease, aside from "The Doctors Opinion" there are others including
those mentioned in the footnote from More Revealed directly below.
Some AA members have stated that the concept of disease was foreign to
early AA, since it was a spiritual, not medical, program. However, much
reference is made to alcoholism being a disease by the earliest members of
AA in the Big Book. In telling of her own conversion process one of the
"pioneers of AA" says, "I was suffering from an actual disease that had a
name and symptoms like diabetes or cancer..."(p.227) Other early Big Book
references by the earliest members to alcoholism as a disease can be found
on pages 187, 191, 307 and 308. (Third edition)
Of course, do not forget that even going back to the Oxford Group days,
the Groupers were in the habit of sequestering away potential recruits in
hospital rooms allowing them only Oxford Group visitors and Oxford Group
reading materials until they converted. They even had a term for this,
From the official A.A. website,
During this hectic ten-year period, Dr. Bob devoted himself to the
question of hospital care for alcoholics, and to their indoctrination with
A.A. principles. Large numbers of alcoholics flocked to Akron to receive
hospital care at St. Thomas, a Catholic hospital. Dr. Bob became a member
of its staff. Subsequently, he and the remarkable Sister M. Ignatia, also
of the staff, cared for and brought A.A. to some 5,000 sufferers. After
Dr. Bobs death in 1950, Sister Ignatia continued to work at Clevelands
Charity Hospital, where she was assisted by the local groups and where
10,000 more sufferers first found A.A. This set a fine example of
hospitalization wherein A.A. could cooperate with both medicine and
Of course, one wouldn't want to leave out the work of Marty Mann, the
first woman credited with long-term sobriety in A.A. and the organization
now named N.C.A.D.D. that set out to teach America that alcoholism is a
disease and needs treatment. http://www.ncadd.org/history/decade1.html
Now you can argue all you want that alcoholism as a disease is foreign to
A.A. because of the disclaimers Wilson made to outsiders as necessary to
win their support but it is very clear that A.A. members were busy
creating and promoting it.
You make a silly argument as to why A.A. isn't a cult. The first is
implying that because people can leave, it isn't a cult. People can leave
Scientology, the Hari Krishnas, the Moonies, and they could even leave the
People's Temple and Heaven's Gate (Total Overcomers Anonymous) until the
last few days of those groups existence. Are you going to argue they
As far as leaving goes, there are between one and two million people a
year coerced to Step groups and there are 12 Step treatment centers where
people are prevented from leaving.
Also, you say a cult must have a leader. Most certainly, A.A. has its
leaders but I think you seem to think that because Bill Wilson is dead,
A.A. isn't a cult. By that logic, Scientology isn't a cult because L.Ron
Hubbard is dead and that if the Reverend Moon of the Moonies was to die
today, tomorrow the Moonies wouldn't be a cult either.
Post by GaryRock
I don't preach the Disease concept. Niether did Bill W and you know it.
It is only used in the Dr. Opinion.
Anyway let's move on to this cult thing. How come the 95% discussed are
able to leave? Did the big bad AA'ers go and threaten them or their
families. Who is the leader? A real cult goes to any length to keep
members. AA is not only a bad treatment, but they do a lousy job of being
a cult. Let's hear your spin.
Post by Ken
I'm not the one who "wants it both ways." A.A. "help" does away with
the possibility for moderation in its members by preaching
"Powerlessness" and disease. Of course, one can argue that A.A. doesn't
harm anyone who doesn't believe anything they say.
Most people who are alcohol dependent at one point in their lives go on
to moderate and not only that, do so without any "help," no less the
kind of help that tells them it is impossible to do so.
Just because both moderation and abstinence are reasonable goals does
not mean that criticism of an organization that promotes only one goal
and insists the other goal is impossible for everyone is from someone
who is trying to have it both ways.
There are organizations that promote abstinence for their members
without coming up with a fake disease to frighten members/potential
members into thinking moderation is impossible for all alcohol dependents.
Post by GaryRock
Good point. Ken wants it both ways. He bashed AA's for drinking but his
plan allows for consumption.
Personally since I started d&u at 13, once I start, I go on a run that
ususally takes some kind of disaster to stop. It got worse with age. I
have no choice but to abstain. I know others who after treatment, AA or
whatever now socially drink. So who is right or wrong here? Nobody.
I have never socially drank and have never wanted too as it is all or
nothing for me.
Post by Kai R Post by Ken
If you wish to keep score, let us do so.
* A.A. claims about 2,000,000 members worldwide.
* 95% who attend A.A. leave within the first year.
* Research has shown that only half of those who have been attending
A.A. for five years have managed to maintain abstinence.
But why do you find that a problem? Are you claiming abstinence is
mandatory for those with substance abuse problems?